Is Salvation a "work of progress?"

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Permalink Reply by Dave Gosse on December 26, 2011 at 9:53pm

Lord, I believe! Help thou my unbelief! 

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Permalink Reply by john mac on December 26, 2011 at 10:21pm

What are you trying to say Dave? So can we "fall away" and since we repent-we are still in the fold?? Or is this passage pertaining only to those that apostate themselves-and upon their own deciding-do not return-to "the fold".

Dave Gosse said:

Lord, I believe! Help thou my unbelief! 

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Permalink Reply by Dave Gosse on December 26, 2011 at 11:52pm

Hi John

 

I think I am trying to say "You ask some tough questions." 8^>  I've considered the question a few times and never reached a conclusion.  It is one I have set aside as nor particularly pressing for myself but am looking for some answers now.  One possible answer is in the commentary on the page linked to the Bible verse above...

Striking Facts: vv. 4–6. These verses do not apply to backsliders, for it states that there is no restoration possible after having once fallen away. The reference is to Hebrews fully enlightened in the prophecies about Christ, and having seen Him and having been carried along by the evident work of the Holy Spirit following His resurrection, yet rejecting all this light. For such there was no further conviction. v. 9 shows that this cannot occur to a true believer, who has “received” not merely “tasted” and is “sealed by the Spirit,” not merely a “partaker” in His illuminating work.

Another source provides much the same interpretation.

Occasion For The Writing Of The Letter To The Hebrews

The Jewish Christians to whom the letter was sent had endured a severe persecution and were subject to additional persecutions (cf. Hebrews 10:32-36). Having been subjected to public ridicule and insults, having had their homes and personal property seized and confiscated, having to bear the same reproach and disgrace from their fellow Jews that Christ himself had heaped upon him (cf. Hebrews 13:12,13), and having to face the possibility of their martyrdom (cf. Hebrews 12:4)--they were growing weak and dispirited (cf. Hebrews 12:12) and their faith was wavering (cf. Hebrews 10:23).

Thus they were tempted to abandon their Christian faith and throw it overboard (cf. Hebrews 10:35; 3:12) in favor of reverting to Judaism (cf. Hebrews 13:9-14), in which they would be spared from further persecutions. Some of their number had already fallen away, repudiated Christ Jesus the Son of God, and had become apostate (cf. Hebrews 6:4-8). The possibility that they all may give up their faith prompted the author to write the letter to encourage them to remain faithful and to assure them their Christianity was superior to Judaism.

There were additional spiritual problems among the Jewish Christian recipients that also needed to be addressed. As far as the Word of God and the gospel of Christ were concerned, they had become dull of hearing and slow to learn. They had failed to progress to the point where they could teach others (cf. Hebrews 5:11-6:3). They were also forsaking their public worship services in which they could hear the Word of God and encourage one another in the faith (cf. Hebrews 10:25).

[...]

c. Be aware that there have been some of your Jewish Christians who had partaken of all the blessings that come through faith in Jesus Christ, but who then fell away. They repudiated Christ, and while they do so it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance. They are worthless weeds who are fit for the fires of hell, Hebrews 6:4-8

[...]

Read more

All I'll say for now is, "Never Read a Bible Verse" - That's the title of a little tract I received from STR.org which cautions us to always look to the larger context.  If a verse is not clear, read the paragraph to put it in context.  If it is still obscure, read the chapter, the book, the whole Bible.  The context is crucial and if, after reading everything the verse remains obscure then set it asided and build your doctrine on the material which is clear. 

 

Can we fall away?  Of course we can.  Judas fell away from the very presence of God in the flesh.  He was an intimate of Jesus Christ, studied at His feet, shared His food, and witnessed miracles.  St. Paul, the great evangelist, in 2 Tim 4:10, writes of "... Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica."  So there is little doubt that we can fall away.

 

Is Salvation a "work of progress"?  Here we ought to consider the matter of definition... What do you mean when you use the term "salvation"?  Traditionally, salvation is not a "work of progress" but is the instant act of God to redeem the fallen at the moment of conversion/baptism.  You are saved!  The begins the process of "sanctification" or the transformation of the saved sinner into a saint. 

 

Salvation is, generally speaking, a joyous occassion - like Christmas (what a coincidence) or a (re)birthday. 8^>  Sanctification is the often painful realization that you may be saved but you are still a sinner and likely (certain) to remain such until your death and ultimate resurrection.  As Luther advises, "The life of the Christian is one of constant repentance."  That means a life of constant self-examination, criticism, and reconstruction.  That will be a painful and traumatic experience and some of us will just turn back to the undemanding world and carry on with our old lives.  It is so much easier. 

 

Some of us will go through the motions, remain in the church, and outwardly confess what we do not practice, and others will enter the ministry and teach a false gospel.  There are wolves and goats among the sheep.  We are called to be like the Bereans and look for ourselves (as I am gratified to see you do) and determine for ourselves the doctrinal truth of the "gospels" that are presented to us.  I am a compulsive person and am compelled to seek answers.  I like and apprecieate the opportunity to write down my thoughts on the things I find because, if nothing else, it helps me sort and evaluate my own ideas.  I hesitate to call them doctrines for I am not qualified to teach but I do like to share them.

 

God bless

Dave

 

 
john mac said:

What are you trying to say Dave? So can we "fall away" and since we repent-we are still in the fold?? Or is this passage pertaining only to those that apostate themselves-and upon their own deciding-do not return-to "the fold".

Dave Gosse said:

Lord, I believe! Help thou my unbelief! 

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Permalink Reply by Dave Gosse on December 27, 2011 at 12:23am

Somebody complained, I think, to Matthew Arnold that he was getting as dogmatic as Carlyle. He replied, "That may be true; but you overlook an obvious difference. I am dogmatic and right, and Carlyle is dogmatic and wrong." The strong humour of the remark ought not to disguise from us its everlasting seriousness and common sense; no man ought to write at all, or even to speak at all, unless he thinks that he is in truth and the other man in error.

G. K. Chesterton, "Heretics" XX. Concluding Remarks on the Importance of Orthodoxy

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Permalink Reply by James Robertson on December 27, 2011 at 5:57am

Most of the New Testament epistles were written to counter lapses from orthodoxy. They include exhortations to remain steadfast in the faith "once for all delivered to the saints". Jesus Himself teaches in Matthew 24 on false teaching that "He who endures to the end will be saved".

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Permalink Reply by john mac on December 27, 2011 at 9:12am

Dave;

Thanks-I thought that was what you were trying to say! Your reply is full of great information....I shall look it over intently. So it appears that these folks just did not fall away-they reverted back whole to an jewish or other type of faith. Hence they had no plan to return to Christianity.....interesting. James,so I am assuming Hebrews was also to be used as an study to remain steadfast? Keep up the replys gentlemen-I am learning here! Dave, as far as the tough questions go-you sure do give great replys to those "toughies". I think to dive into Scripture much as we have-causes us to ask those types of questions-and quite frankly,I find that in certain instances-The Scripture compels us NOT to be "politically correct".

I have found that Scripture causes us to reflect inward-and some of these thoughts transcend that politically correct view. Unfortunatly some churches-wish to remain silent on some of these more "controversial" issues. Yet I think they must be addressed.....                                                                                              Blessings

                                                                                                                                 John Mac

Dave Gosse said:

Hi John

 

I think I am trying to say "You ask some tough questions." 8^>  I've considered the question a few times and never reached a conclusion.  It is one I have set aside as nor particularly pressing for myself but am looking for some answers now.  One possible answer is in the commentary on the page linked to the Bible verse above...

Striking Facts: vv. 4–6. These verses do not apply to backsliders, for it states that there is no restoration possible after having once fallen away. The reference is to Hebrews fully enlightened in the prophecies about Christ, and having seen Him and having been carried along by the evident work of the Holy Spirit following His resurrection, yet rejecting all this light. For such there was no further conviction. v. 9 shows that this cannot occur to a true believer, who has “received” not merely “tasted” and is “sealed by the Spirit,” not merely a “partaker” in His illuminating work.

Another source provides much the same interpretation.

Occasion For The Writing Of The Letter To The Hebrews

The Jewish Christians to whom the letter was sent had endured a severe persecution and were subject to additional persecutions (cf. Hebrews 10:32-36). Having been subjected to public ridicule and insults, having had their homes and personal property seized and confiscated, having to bear the same reproach and disgrace from their fellow Jews that Christ himself had heaped upon him (cf. Hebrews 13:12,13), and having to face the possibility of their martyrdom (cf. Hebrews 12:4)--they were growing weak and dispirited (cf. Hebrews 12:12) and their faith was wavering (cf. Hebrews 10:23).

Thus they were tempted to abandon their Christian faith and throw it overboard (cf. Hebrews 10:35; 3:12) in favor of reverting to Judaism (cf. Hebrews 13:9-14), in which they would be spared from further persecutions. Some of their number had already fallen away, repudiated Christ Jesus the Son of God, and had become apostate (cf. Hebrews 6:4-8). The possibility that they all may give up their faith prompted the author to write the letter to encourage them to remain faithful and to assure them their Christianity was superior to Judaism.

There were additional spiritual problems among the Jewish Christian recipients that also needed to be addressed. As far as the Word of God and the gospel of Christ were concerned, they had become dull of hearing and slow to learn. They had failed to progress to the point where they could teach others (cf. Hebrews 5:11-6:3). They were also forsaking their public worship services in which they could hear the Word of God and encourage one another in the faith (cf. Hebrews 10:25).

[...]

c. Be aware that there have been some of your Jewish Christians who had partaken of all the blessings that come through faith in Jesus Christ, but who then fell away. They repudiated Christ, and while they do so it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance. They are worthless weeds who are fit for the fires of hell, Hebrews 6:4-8

[...]

Read more

All I'll say for now is, "Never Read a Bible Verse" - That's the title of a little tract I received from STR.org which cautions us to always look to the larger context.  If a verse is not clear, read the paragraph to put it in context.  If it is still obscure, read the chapter, the book, the whole Bible.  The context is crucial and if, after reading everything the verse remains obscure then set it asided and build your doctrine on the material which is clear. 

 

Can we fall away?  Of course we can.  Judas fell away from the very presence of God in the flesh.  He was an intimate of Jesus Christ, studied at His feet, shared His food, and witnessed miracles.  St. Paul, the great evangelist, in 2 Tim 4:10, writes of "... Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica."  So there is little doubt that we can fall away.

 

Is Salvation a "work of progress"?  Here we ought to consider the matter of definition... What do you mean when you use the term "salvation"?  Traditionally, salvation is not a "work of progress" but is the instant act of God to redeem the fallen at the moment of conversion/baptism.  You are saved!  The begins the process of "sanctification" or the transformation of the saved sinner into a saint. 

 

Salvation is, generally speaking, a joyous occassion - like Christmas (what a coincidence) or a (re)birthday. 8^>  Sanctification is the often painful realization that you may be saved but you are still a sinner and likely (certain) to remain such until your death and ultimate resurrection.  As Luther advises, "The life of the Christian is one of constant repentance."  That means a life of constant self-examination, criticism, and reconstruction.  That will be a painful and traumatic experience and some of us will just turn back to the undemanding world and carry on with our old lives.  It is so much easier. 

 

Some of us will go through the motions, remain in the church, and outwardly confess what we do not practice, and others will enter the ministry and teach a false gospel.  There are wolves and goats among the sheep.  We are called to be like the Bereans and look for ourselves (as I am gratified to see you do) and determine for ourselves the doctrinal truth of the "gospels" that are presented to us.  I am a compulsive person and am compelled to seek answers.  I like and apprecieate the opportunity to write down my thoughts on the things I find because, if nothing else, it helps me sort and evaluate my own ideas.  I hesitate to call them doctrines for I am not qualified to teach but I do like to share them.

 

God bless

Dave

 

 
john mac said:

What are you trying to say Dave? So can we "fall away" and since we repent-we are still in the fold?? Or is this passage pertaining only to those that apostate themselves-and upon their own deciding-do not return-to "the fold".

Dave Gosse said:

Lord, I believe! Help thou my unbelief! 

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Permalink Reply by James Robertson on December 27, 2011 at 10:00am

When you're right, you're right. Political correctness is conformity to this world. And we have an apostolic exhortation addressing that very subject. Romans 12:2

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Permalink Reply by john mac on December 27, 2011 at 10:32am

James:

Wow-thanks James....I never thought to that one! That absolutly puts to rest that question in my mind! Scripture does interpret Scripture. Many folks like to say-especially apostate ones-JW's Mormons-etc like to say that we need to get into the "deeper parts of Scripture" in order to answer some of these questions. I disagree. Scripture interprets Scripture....some passages may be further towards the back of the "Good Book" but Scripture still interprets Scripture. These answers are given to where they can "read" into their theology....not true Scripture. I understand much better now how to "disagree" with certain theologys-because they like to use only certain passages-yet not in whole. This type of "proof texting" leads to heresy and worse. By learning and listening here with my friends at the W/T I have learned to read the portion of Scripture-and within its entirety. I find that many positions taken by other theologys would be better served to follow this rule!

                                                                                                                 Thanks

                                                                                                                           John Mac

James Robertson said:

When you're right, you're right. Political correctness is conformity to this world. And we have an apostolic exhortation addressing that very subject. Romans 12:2

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Permalink Reply by James Robertson on December 27, 2011 at 12:45pm

Revelation 7:10 Salvation belongs to our God Who sits on the throne and to the Lamb. In this vision of St.John, salvation is acclaimed as an accomplished fact( Lutheran Study Bible). St. Peter proclaims: Baptism now saves you(1 Peter 3:21). Note that Romans 12:2 is in the passive voice - "be transformed". The renewing of the mind is the work of the Holy Spirit as we grow in the knowledge of Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Permalink Reply by Dave Gosse on December 28, 2011 at 12:06am

Hi John

 

Enjoy the reading.  If I might suggest something...  Read some stuff on traditional logic and rhetoric.  It can be valuable when sorting your thoughts and analyzing arguments.  Here is a good introduction... and here.
 
john mac said:

Dave;

Thanks-I thought that was what you were trying to say! Your reply is full of great information....I shall look it over intently.

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Permalink Reply by Dave Gosse on December 29, 2011 at 5:00pm

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Permalink Reply by Dave Gosse on December 30, 2011 at 7:08am

Hi John

 

There is only one good reason for learning logic, and that is to detect bad reasoning.  There is are two good reasons for learning rhetoric, to express your ideas clearly and to protect yourself from demagogues.  Both are handy tools to have in your arsenal... as Calvin so aptly demonstrates. 

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