Pastor Gary Held's Page

Gary,
I was actually going to an ELCA Lutheran church although I was raised Baptist. I was getting tired of being entertained at the church I was in so the Sun. they decided to do a banjo service, I went to the church I said I never would-the LCMS church just down the street. The service was on the Apostles Creed and I have always wanted to know why I was saying it. I was invited to adult education classes and I was so happy to learn "Christ accepted me through my baptism and not that I accepted Him". It was what I have been searching for all my life.
Margaret

Gary,

In regards to your query about the doc/cc pastor, I would suggest that you ask him time who is the active participant in the baptism.

They Key verses for me for this was Titus 3:4-6, Ezekiel 36 (about verse 25) and of course Romans 6. (have him check the verb tesnses)

This should make him ask a few questions, though I wouldn't o it in an agressive manner - just drop it into the conversation.

By the way, my bet is he is an Ozark or Cincinati grad. They run closer to zwingli, while Joplin is more tuned to Calvin, and Lincoln and PCC were more arminian. There were a lot of real presence guys I knew in the denom, but baptism was always a interesting issue.

Godspeed

Thank you so much! Esp forthe scripture ref. I'll be digging into this website further this week end (very busy week).
Krisi

Thanks Gary for the tip, if I did it right.

Sorry it took so long to reply, some weeks I'm on every night and some busy weeks it may be a few days - you know how that goes.

I've been checking the site out and am surprised to find so many thinking and saying almost the exact same things I've been (depending on background) and what's drawn or drawing them to Lutheran.

I'd like to check out your pod cast, that sounds great!

Hello!

I hope this is not too long for a comment on your page.

The state church of Finland is called "The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland" (ELCF).
Note: Evangelical has a different meaning here in Finland than in the USA!
ELCF has been really Lutheran for centuries (until now). "Evangelical" is not related at all to theology of Baptists, to decision theology or to that kind of theology which is preached by Billy Graham, etc. here in Finland. Evangelical means Lutheran here in Finland (!).

It is quite confusing when the same word has different meanings in different countries and it is quite impossible to use these words without misunderstandings.

So: ELCF has been a Lutheran church body for centuries. Close to 80 % of the population of Finland belong to ELCF still. The amount was 95 % in 1970. It is nowadays really Liberal as mentioned, so it is not Lutheran anymore. It is Lutheran "only" in theory, but not in practise. More and more people are divorsing from ELCF today.

There are some very small Lutheran denominations here in Finland too. One has been formed in 1920. They have translated a couple of good books too. But I think they have not been correct when they have claimed for decades, starting from 1920, that people / folk should separate (divorce) themselves from ELCF already in the first half of last century. And they claim it is wrong to fight in ELCF now either. It is not enough for them that Altar Fellowship is broken with Liberals. No one should even be members of ELCF, they claim. I do not think that is correct. I think pastors and we others can try to "fight" in the ELCF still and pray for her. We should be like a church inside the other church. Maybe time will tell what is the correct way too. Things may get worse and worse, but maybe time will tell more.

I am still a member of ELCF in paper, but I do not have Altar fellowship with many of the congregations in ELCF. There are some pastors, who confess according to the Bible and who stay in Lutheran Confessions, and some of them can work in ELCF still. Some are being thrown out, but some have their "jobs" still. I have Altar fellowship with them and with those congregations. But those pastors are being thrown out of ELCF as mentioned earlier too. The situation is changing.

We are in the middle of a change. ELCF is becoming Liberal. Almost all of Finnish People have belong to ELCF for centuries so it is quite a different situation here than in many other countries in this world. People have not chosen their denominations. "We" are still trying to make a change in the ELCF, or better said: we pray that God would make a change through His Word in ELCF. It does not look good, at least not for ELCF, but we can pray. All "began" in 1980's when they started to ordain women as pastors in ELCF. And the speed is faster and faster towards Liberalism. I do not know can it even get further anymore.

Young students of theology, who have their Degree finished and ready, they have graduated, are denied from the Office of Pastor. Young graduates are not ordained. Bishops do not allow them to be pastors.

Sorry, this is becoming long.

But still something.

There begin to form groups in different cities in Finland where God feeds His sheep with Word and Sacraments.
This has began to happen, because of this change in ELCF.

I participate in the Divine Service in a group which is called something like "Luther Foundation".
Lutheran Heritage Foundation (LHF) helps it too.
A Finnish person Rev. Dr. "Anssi Simojoki" is mentioned on LHF pages:
http://www.lhfmissions.org/News/Som-planting.htm

I think these groups, like Luther Foundation, begin to form a "Mission Diocese" in Finland.
I am not sure is "Mission Diocese" a correct word, I am writing quite quickly and I am not checking all of the words from the dictionary either.
There is a "Mission Diocese" in Sweden already. You may have heard about the bishop Walther Obare. He has been interviewed in "Issues etc.".
"Mission Diocese" in Sweden:
http://www.missionsprovinsen.se/
Similar Diocese may get formed in Finland too. Maybe even a bishop some day too.

Here are some publications which Luther Foundation has published.
http://www.luthersaatio.com/julkaisut.php
From Herman Sasse, David P. Scaer, Robert D. Preus, Harold L. Senkbeil.
There are even small books which have been translated, but which are not mentioned on the page.
A book from John T. Pless has been translated.
Also one chapter from book "The Fire and the Staff" (by Klemet I Preus) has been translated and published by "Luther Foundation".
Explanation of the Genesis (author Martin Luther) is being published by Luther Foundation too. Five parts have been published already.


So I belong to "Luther Foundation". I am member of ELCF, but somehow just formally.
Many who are members in "Luther Foundation" are also members of ELCF too, even though many do not have Altar Fellowship with all of the congreations in ELCF.


> I've heard that something like 2% of the population
> of Finland attends worship services.
> Do you think that statistic is accurate?

It is quite an accurate approximation.
About 4 % of Finnish population attended the Lord's Supper at least once in a month in 2003.
28 % of the population of Finland participated the Lord's Supper at least once in a year in 2003.

One pastor claimed that maybe more than 85% of population of Finland do not go to church even in Christmas at the moment.

There are a lot of e,g, New Age supporters in Finland I think. Many kinds of paganisms exist.

Many belong to church only formally.
87¤ of children are baptized (in 2004).
Christian funerals are kept for 98 % of all (who die). This was also in 2004.


You mentioned about Web Cam. Sorry, I do not have such.
I have quite slow Internet connection too, but good enough for the Wittenberg Trail!
Thank you for creation of the group regarding Finland!

And thank You for your messages!

In Christ,
Samuli Ruohola

Hi. Sure, I'd be glad to be on your show, if we could work out a time.

Thank you, Pastor, for your welcome. Thank you for this site.
Miles Whitener

Thanks for the welcome, Pastor Held. You're right; it seems the truth will always be under attack by those who would deny it (makes a certain amount of sense, I suppose). All the more reason to stand and fight. Ahem. Not to be melodramatic, or anything.

You're welcome. I heard about this site through my dad, Neil Bartlett, who was the one to help out of the dark forest of fundamentalism to the light of Lutheranism. Again, not to be melodramatic.

Gary! Ya, it's me. Great to hear from you! Where you at now? I'm at Faith in Greenfield, IN, about 20 minutes due East of Indianapolis. Things are going really well. The family is fine (we now have 3 children: a girl - 11, and two boys - 8 and 5). How ya been?